Emily For President's Angels (Respectfully)
Welcome to the first ever E4P Women’s Roundtable
Well, we’ve been building to this moment here at Emily For President for a while now so let’s dive right in.
Today, a number of past and future female E4P guests have come together to discuss the general nightmare that is ✨womanhood.✨ All I asked (demanded) that no one apologize for anything— a demand which some people still did not heed but nevertheless!!!!! Here is the first ever E4P Women’s Roundtable!!!
What's your Real Housewife tagline introduction?
Rebecca Lynne Loftin, 23, she/her: Messy on gin & her latest boy toy.
Liz Moore, 23, she/her: Being hot is a mindset. So choose that life for yourself, queen.
Alice, 22, she/her/hers: Life is a silly little playground and I am on the monkey bars.
Blair Baker, 23 (said with existential dread), she/her/hers: She’s confident… confident her next anxiety attack is pending.
Erin, 24, she/hers: I have been told I'm the "most qualified teacher in the building." Is that a compliment to me or a really upsetting note about public education right now?
Audrey, 20, she/her/hers: I like my Sketchers, but I love my Prada backpack
Vanessa, 23, she/her: These are really hard to come up with!
Michelle 24 she/her: This is just my audition for the real Real Housewives
E, 26, she/her: I may have dyslexia, but I'll read you like a book.
Men— thoughts on that????
Sandra Etuk, 23, she/her: When I read this question, the first 15 seconds of this video was my actual reaction. I think men are both idolized and infantilized and it is the most frustrating thing ever. Men are praised for doing the absolute bare minimum because the standards for male behavior are so low. And I find it really sad that there are so many smart and beautiful women who settle for men who are, for lack of a better term, bums.
I recently de-centered men from my life, and I am so much happier because of it. I don’t think people realize how much pressure young women face to be constantly thinking about getting and or keeping a man. And then these same men will use you for emotional labor over and over again while simultaneously offering you very little emotional fulfillment.
Rebecca: I do not envy them. A prison of your own performative masculinity? Lol, no thanks.
Alice: Buckle up girlfriend, this is gonna be a long Emily 4 President. I unironically love men, but oh my god I hate men. They can be so terrible and mean and life-ruining. One hand is blowing men a kiss, the other is holding a taser just in case.
Blair: Oh god... I would like to be proven wrong that there are some good ones out there, but have yet to see the proof. Even the "good ones" seem to disappoint.
Erin: So many thoughts and yet also no thoughts at all. Does that make sense? Let's just say my patience threshold is dwindling.
Vanessa: Don’t get me started!
E: The only man I have time for is Joey Gorga.
When did you realize we were living in a patriarchal society?
Sandra: I realized there was something wrong with the power dynamics of the world when I was in middle school and the people who were student body presidents, top of the class, heads of extracurriculars were all girls. But when you look at real life, men more or less control everything.
Rebecca: When I realized my elementary school bully was a fugly ginger who SPEED SKATED and was still much more popular than me.
Liz: I think there was a moment sometime in middle school or high school when I suddenly realized why I was often inexplicably uncomfortable or wanted to make myself smaller and unseen. I realized that some of my anxiety and discomfort around my existence didn't have anything to do with me at all, but rather a larger system that governed all social dynamics. Then every time I'd read a piece of feminist literature or consume media that enlightened me further, everything would click more into place as I could relate it all to my own lived experience.
T, 24, she/her: Maybe when realized I wasn’t supposed to be strong (physically or outspoken and opinionated).
Alice: I think like most women, it was a slow education process. When you’re just a kid, you learn about women’s suffrage and wives of presidents and all that, but you don’t really register what’s going on. There’s a certain point in your early life where you’re like, “Hey, wait, why have no women been president?” or “Why is every girl in the movies a damsel in distress?” or even “why is every female animal on this show...hot?” The realization hit me, personally, once I had to start changing skirts, wearing bras, and ignoring catcalls from men five decades older than me. It was a new, unpleasant experience for me, but what really shook me was that this was just “how it is.”
Erin: When I was in high school and we would have Socratic seminar-based classes. Guys in our class would always: 1) be the first to speak, 2) interrupt more frequently, and 3) not actually have interesting or nuanced things to contribute. And yet they thought they did? Hilarious.
Audrey: I have two very vivid memories of elementary school: one was there was a giant mud puddle at recess one day and all the boys were running through it. Most of the girls were all huddled off to the side giggling because they were either too scared to run through the mud or the ones that built up the bravery to attempt were being shot down by the boys in line who were saying "they were too chicken" or "that it wasn't girly enough" so they shouldn't. So I, an angsty first-grader, ran through the mud to prove to the girls that it wasn't scary and also to the boys as an F.U. gesture. The second time was in fifth grade, and all the boys in the grade started playing a big soccer game at recess. It was the same situation, where either the girls were too scared to play, were gaslighted out of playing, or did play but basically were to just fill space. Keep in mind these girls were very much qualified to play and were on better travel teams than me. However, I took it upon myself to join the game and not let the boys push me into that waste of space and I was able to prove my athletic ability. After that, they all wanted me to play every recess and be on their teams.
These events were so minuscule but exposed me to the power dynamic and the sexist mentalities held by men in our society. I also hated myself looking back now for the divide that it put between me and the other girls because it fueled the internalized misogyny in myself that I had to later unlearn.
Michelle: In the third grade when my teacher told me I was “very smart for a girl.”
Erin: Both of my parents are retired military and people used to always thank my mom for "her husband’s service" or tell her they couldn't give military discounts to "wives." She always respectfully corrected them but I hated that she had to.
What is the male gaze to you?
Rebecca: The permeating feeling of being observed, not as a woman is, but how she is purported to be by men and those in positions of power. In the words of Ms. Swift, a "never-needy, ever-lovely jewel." Whatever a woman created by the male gaze maybe, she is first and foremost, beautiful.
Liz: It's both the pervasive and entrenched belief system, as well as the literal, physical act of objectification of women and reinforcement of patriarchal power imbalances. It spans everything: from the way individual men (or women! we were all raised in the patriarchy) look you up and down on a daily basis, to the way our culture at large treats women in the media, in our laws, in literature and art, etc, and the way boys and men (and women again!) speak to each other... I could go on.
T: Problematic
Alice: The male gaze exists at a bar or in Trader Joe’s, it exists in the privacy of your room, it exists when you lay down to sleep at night. The male gaze has infiltrated most (if not all) women in our society due to how ingrained it was at a young age. It’s been a hot topic on TikTok recently, as many women were attesting to be written in “the female gaze”— sorry to be this person, but no, we are all trapped in the male gaze. Men opt to objectify women so much in media AND in real life, women begin to self-objectify themselves and only view their bodies in a sexualized manner.
I am pulling this straight from my thesis:
“anticipating the male gaze and being sexualized can increase self-objectification, as an individual may value how they are perceived over their actual self-worth. Being repeatedly exposed to sexually objectifying media can then normalize the experience for a user, increasing their likelihood of internalizing the media and anticipating the male gaze.”
Blair: It is the framework that we ALL exist in. I literally don’t know how to not be in the male gaze, I feel like it's how I look in the mirror every day.
Erin: The male gaze is a way of portraying and viewing women that empowers men while sexualizing and devaluing women. If something is grounded in pleasing men, to me that's something rooted in the male gaze.
Audrey: We adhere to the male gaze because it's what men want to see at that moment, which is always ironic. It's the conservative mentality and childlike fetish of women while on the other side the desensitization to sexual abuse because of media, films, video games, and pornography. For example, because I will always use an excuse to bring up Taylor Swift: when she was a kid in the spotlight of the music industry, older men fetishized her but then deemed her as a "slut" or a "bitch" when she dated and then broke up with them. They would sexualize her, but also want her to put on a "goody girl act."
Vanessa: From the male gaze (in art and media), women are not fully realized characters, but exist only in relationship to men, often for their sexual entertainment.
Thankfully, we have great modern stories from a female POV, but they’re often considered to be just for women, while the male POV is for everyone. Harry Potter is for everyone, Twilight is just for girls. On the rare occasion that a story is from a female POV but is still for everyone, the female protagonist has traditionally masculine traits: your Katniss Everdeen, your Captain Marvel. If a story truly celebrates femininity— it’s a chick flick.
Michelle: Male gaze to me is viewing women as side characters to their story but not acknowledging them as having their own story, too.
E: From a heteronormative perspective, the "male gaze" is the lens through which men view everything women do as an effort to attract men. The male gaze goes beyond the way things are portrayed in media (although that's where it's most obvious), but also refers to the way men view interactions with women.
What is your relationship with beauty standards?
Alice: Tumultuous. When you and I chatted about disordered eating and hot girl summer, I touched on how beauty standards are deeply embedded in our lives. I think I have a lot to learn (or unlearn), like everyone else. I try to just wear clothes, do makeup and fix my hair in the way that I want to, but the sad truth is that everything I do is somehow interwoven with beauty standards. Especially with being single and in my young 20’s, I really can see how following beauty standards gets you more things in life i.e., free drinks, guys’ numbers, and their respect. As much as I act like I fulfill beauty standards for my own volition, they have a larger grip on me than I’d like to believe.
Blair: It's a constant fight. I understand that I don't exist completely in the beauty standards— I do know I am a white, blonde, cis-gender female, but the beauty standard remains at this very thin ideal that I don't fit into. So for me, it's this push and pull of knowing that this ideal is insane, and unrealistic, but also knowing I live in this society and that the ideals DO apply to me.
Erin: This relationship has certainly evolved now compared to high school and college years. Now, with all body type representation becoming more normalized and widespread, particularly in relation to what we see on social media, I've very recently (I'm talking like within the last year) just started to not really care about what other people think. I've been on this Earth for 24 years. That's a loooooonnng time to walk around worrying about how I look compared to other people. And it's really liberating to start to not feel that way anymore.
Vanessa: Because American standards are rooted and grounded in whiteness, I have never expected to live up to them, but they are still enforced by society in ways I have to try to comply with. I’m haunted by the memory of a teacher asking me to put sweatpants on under my cheerleading skirt in high school because she thought it was too short on me. Obviously, it was a school-assigned uniform and the same skirt all of the other girls on my team were wearing, but on my body (the body of a child!) it was inappropriate, scandalous. This is just one example of the way Black girls are often over-sexualized and not allowed to experience childhood as long as their white counterparts.
Michelle: When I was younger I definitely tried to achieve the standard and would be frustrated when I felt like I was “failing” at it. Now I have been better about checking in on myself when doing anything that has to do with my appearance and try and determine if I am doing something or buying something because I want to or because I feel like I should because of beauty standards
E: Growing up my relationship with beauty standards was fueled by wanting to fit in and make girlfriends, it was never fueled by male attention or the idea of attractiveness. I wanted my girlfriends to think my outfit was cute or tell me they were jealous of my new haircut, it was always about fitting in socially, feeling accepted.
Follow up: what do you think is the number one factor in your life that shapes your relationship with beauty standards?
Sandra: The most relevant factor in my relationship with beauty standards is obviously race. As a Black woman, you realize at a young age that you are considered maybe the exact opposite of the beauty standard. I have memories of a “hot list” going around my 6th grade class and all the Black girls were at the bottom of the list. I had a friend my freshman year of college who told me to my face that before coming to college, she didn’t realize that anyone who wasn’t white could be considered beautiful.
Despite experiences like these, I still believe that it’s important to recognize that I have a degree of privilege by being thin and having lighter skin. The further you deviate from the beauty standard of being white, blonde, and thin, the worse you are treated in society. I think something that all women of color eventually learn is that you’re not ugly, you’re just around too many white people. The standards for being considered attractive for women of color, especially Black women, are so much higher than they are for white women.
Whether you want to admit it or not, beauty standards are an output of white supremacy. No matter how hard I try, as a Black woman I could never be the beauty standard. That is a reason why I think it’s so important to realize that being “hot” is a state of mind that you have 100% control over. Me feeling or looking hot has nothing to do with anyone else.
Rebecca: The fact that I used to be an actress. If I never acted, I don't think I would care half so much about being pretty.
Liz: I'm gonna get deep here because as I think of all the factors that have an influence, they all connect down to the core of insecurity and fear. Like social media, the people I knew in college, the tendency towards consumerism, etc, none of them would really be so important if they didn't touch a core wound that triggers a primal fear of being outcast from the tribe if I don't "fit in."
T: The general onslaught of imagery/standards/reinforcement through various media sources.
Alice: Probably social media. If I was completely offline, I’d have no way of knowing what the hottest clothes, makeup, and hairstyle currently is (it’s like 70’s blowout hair and like Y2K rn… right?). But spending hours on social media every day subjects me to the current beauty standard since it’s plastered all over influencers' and celebrities' pages. Social media also validates or punishes what standard a user chooses to satisfy. There are studies indicating that users are very impressionable and wish to mimic behavior that earns them likes and nice comments. Ever hear a friend (or yourself) say that she wants to take a picture to post on Instagram? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that isn’t healthy. Situations like that indicate one’s need to satisfy beauty standards and share it online for peers to see.
Blair: Social media/popular media.
Audrey: Social media. From sixth grade to about junior/senior year of high school, I subconsciously found myself, like many others, constantly searching through other young women's Instagrams and giving myself endless things to change about my appearance.
Vanessa: Racism! Even as beauty standards are evolving to favor some non-white features, like full lips and darker skin, these features are still more celebrated in their artificial form on white women than when they occur naturally on women of color. I bet y’all can think of some examples of this! And even as TV and movies get more diverse, most of the actresses of color are light-skinned or biracial.
Beauty standards are still enforcing a racial hierarchy in insidious ways.
Michelle: Where I grew up.
Miss for a dollar: who is the best woman you know?
Rebecca: Oliva Ficke-Anderson (a great friend of mine). She has little to no hang-ups about herself and I love her for it.
Liz: My mom! (Yeah, predictable, I know, but she's a baddie)
Alice: MY MOM!!!
Blair: Roo and E4P is a close second
Erin: My best friend from high school (nameless as I did not check in with her before writing this). Feminist, intelligent, compassionate, well-traveled, well-read, insanely nice, and insanely fun.
Audrey: Miss Danni Lee (aka our mom)
Vanessa: Cliché answer, but my mama!
Michelle: My sister is the best woman I know. (This was the easiest question for me to answer)
E: Hilary Duff and my mom.
What is one act/thought process that was fueled by internalized misogyny that you had to unlearn?
Rebecca: I shit you not (and this is really foul), I had this need to be the prettiest woman in the room at all times. When I wasn't, I fell apart. Therapy helps.
Liz: Internally, impostor syndrome and unworthiness. Where would I get the fundamental idea that I'm not good enough? From all the subtle and not-so-subtle messaging I received growing up in this world that I have to meet certain expectations to be accepted and valued. And externally, there have been plenty of other patterns, like following the same unworthiness thread which leads to a habit of comparison, I've worked on the act of judging and critiquing other women based on unrealistic beauty and success standards.
T: Not sure if this counts but I’m still learn how to not let myself feel small or useless in conversations dominated by men
Alice: Hating on other women. Let me be clear here— feminism does not mean I love and adore every single woman, but I came to realize that so many girls I used to trash talk back in middle or high school were subject to my own internal misogyny. It’s so interesting, in a terrible way of course, that so many women opt to slut-shame others. Hating on other women can also look like bullying those who don’t fit the beauty standard, or go against the status quo, or maybe just have a different personality from ours.
I really think this stems from internalized misogyny because men are so quick to hate and nitpick every single thing we women do, so we learn from them, or we're aware enough to fear being nitpicked, too.
Blair: Still fucking unlearning that I am "too much" for wanting commitment, to make plans, to feel loved.
Erin: Being small/skinny/petite whatever you want to call it = beautiful. Ugh.
Audrey: The "bruh" vs "pick me" girls. It's using the word "bitch" in an unreclaimed manner, it's believing that "guy friends" are less dramatic than having "girl friends", it's the actual "bruh" vs "hey girly" girls TikTok trend in the Summer of 2020, and it's especially admitting you don't like Taylor Swift. I also give in to so many of these, too, but it's exhausting and sucks each day when you realize just another thing that is so embedded in our brains, language, or actions.
One of my favorite quotes is from Florence Given who says to "refuse to find comfort in other women's flaws." She follows this up with explaining how we judge other women and label them within the sexist narrative that society has written to get out of dealing with our own insecurities. Yet if we deal with these flaws, the patriarchal system also makes us shameful for trying to break out of the narrative. It's a trap, basically.
Vanessa: I’m still working on letting myself wear fun, fashion-y outfits even if I know boys won’t like or get them. I want to wear outfits to impress my little sister who is much cooler than me and runs a K-pop stan account, not random men!
E: That every romantic interaction is transactional and that every action needs to be reciprocated or I'm being rude/unkind. It's been tough and still feels horribly awkward but I always feel better being honest about my intentions going into romantic situations.
Why do you think more women aren't taught the power of intersectional feminism?
Sandra: White supremacy. Next question.
Rebecca: If we unite, we might kill all men (joking… joking). But in all seriousness, then there would actually be a chance of superseding the minority majority that has become cis white men.
Liz: I think to a certain extent, society at large is ok with White feminism. It's easier for the patriarchy to accept that cishet White women can have SOME success— like "lean-in" feminism is an easier pill to swallow for the patriarchy.
T: If it doesn’t apply to or affect them— like if they’re benefitting from white privilege.
Alice: I feel like some women aren’t taught this or exposed to the term due to fear of being judged or ”cancelled” (agh). I feel like our modern, mainstream conversations surrounding feminism have been reduced to girl power t-shirts and lip-syncing TikToks to feminist anthems. These are digestible, trendy and “cool” things on the surface level, but neglect to showcase the full spectrum of feminism and what is wrong with society today. I think some people rather talk about how terrible Trump is over how privileged white women are compared to women of color.
Blair: The patriarchy pits people against each other knowing that this intersectionality could be so strong.
Audrey: Because white feminism is easy to grasp. To completely uproot your understanding of society by realizing everything is inherently based on sexism and that it further overlaps with other forms of oppression, can be so unbelievably frustrating, overwhelming, and exhausting; so much that we just don't want to do it. When the weight keeps getting heavier and heavier, women question why to even fight it.
As stated in a previous E4P, "If institutions favor you, there's no urgency to change them."
In what ways does our society pit women with different intersecting identities against each other? What would happen if we dismantled that way of thinking?
Sandra: I think society and the media (and honestly, this question) really leans into an “all women should stick together” mentality when that is so far from reality. Yes we may have marginalized identities, but ultimately white supremacy still exists and it’s really harmful to ignore how that plays a role in how you are treated and perceived as a woman. A straight cis white woman has such a different struggle than a queer trans Black woman because while, yes, she may face discrimination because she is a woman, she will always have the benefit of whiteness.
And that’s not to say that this is the oppression olympics —different people face different struggles— but I don’t think it’s “society” pitting any woman against any other woman with a different identity. I think in the year 2021 not being intersectional in your feminism is a choice because Google is free and there are so many opportunities to understand the struggles of those with different identities. It is your choice to unlearn racism, classism, homophobia, and transphobia and translate that into how you support other women in your life.
T: What comes to mind is white supremacy mostly and how society uses this (and other hierarchies obviously) to separate and oppress. If we were able to dismantle all that, we’ll ideally progress in many ways
Blair: Othering!! We are taught: look like this, NOT that, do this, NOT that, and so those that do the “wrong thing” are othered and pitted against each other.
Audrey: Through the structure of privilege. Many subjects of women's rights, such as abortion laws, favor cis white women. It's also similar to how many demand justice for Gabby Petito, but then how missing women of color aren't given the same effort for. It's easy to suscribe to this ignorance but it also divides women with different intersecting identities, promotes an unrealistic standard of reaching equality, and overall doesn't contribute to feminism at all.
To achieve real justice, we have to dismantle the whole system, meaning that white women have to also take responsibility and action for their own contributions to the patriarchal culture.
Vanessa: I love the idea of female solidarity, but I don’t know if I believe that it’s possible. Women aren’t a monolith and we have legitimate reasons to oppose each other, politically and personally. I think part of it is because the other identities we have —like race, religion, and class— feel more meaningful to us.
What is the number one thing you wish you could tell men to stop doing to make your life a little easier?
Rebecca: Go to therapy.
Liz: Pleeeeeaaassseeeee leave me alone on the street!!!!! I just want to go about my day not feeling completely on edge and uncomfy because some 39yo balding dude in a poorly fitting polo wants to stare at me from two feet away as I walk by and mumble "ya beautiful" under his breath for WHAT REASON. Also just like actually learn how to empathize, like for once just really think about what it's like to be someone else.
Alice: Please stop expecting so much of us when all you do is roll out of bed, brush your teeth and put a regular ass outfit on. The difference between our standards and theirs always baffles me. I remember my brother once remarked how hard it must be for me: guys get to wear shorts and a t- shirt and girls have to assemble a sporty or casual cute lunch outfit. “But you don’t have to do all of that”— yeah, I do, if I want to be perceived positively by society and fit into the beauty standards that it created.
Blair: Please stop objectifying women :P
Erin: Don't touch me (at all) unless you have permission. Also don't mansplain things to me. I'm probably smarter than you are
Audrey: Take accountability and just do your own education and research. Learn a little on your own time to reflect off some of that power. Make a change, big or small, in your actions and/or language on your OWN. Just because you're not violent towards women or even call them bitches doesn't mean you're not a misogynist. Women don't owe any reason to have to spell everything out for you.
Vanessa: Stop talking so much in class! I’m in law school with a mostly-female student body, and in 100% of my classes, mostly men speak. The women don’t need to speak up more (they tend to make infrequent but meaningful contributions), the men need to speak up less! They’re clearly just spouting out whatever comes to mind! Lovingly, shut up!
Michelle: Speaking? Kidding. In all seriousness I’m not sure what they need to stop doing but I definitely think I need to be listened to more and that would make my life easier… so maybe actually my original answer.
E: I wish men would forget this notion they've been taught that women aren't saying what they really mean. Women can communicate just as clearly as men, there is no larger mind game going on.
Anything else you would like to add?
Liz: Sometimes it's hard not to feel totally hopeless about the future of the world when I think about how wide and deep these issues run. But hey, I guess I don't need to worry too far into the future because we're just gonna trash and burn up our planet anyway.
T: Recently have been thinking about notions of pride in being a woman yet also understanding that gender isn’t binary and is on a spectrum, as well as how those ideas conflict and if they can coexist
Alice: Just that I encourage all women to educate themselves on topics that may overwhelm or confuse them, especially topics that pertain to differing identities from yours. Oh and I wrote my honors thesis on digital communities, disordered eating and how social media perpetuates the male gaze … so…. read if you want...
Erin: Lots of people have been saying this, so it's certainly not an original thought but I believe it to be an important one- when men f*ck up, where are all the men holding that dude accountable? Y'all need to speak up, check one another, and make some noise. Call it out when you see it if you really want to be an "ally".
Audrey: If Joe Goldberg was a woman, she would be a girlboss. Just saying. Think about it.
E: I started to say the whole "not knowing enough on something" but then I shut my mouth!!!!!!
Leave a compliment to a fellow girlie :)
Liz: You're literally so powerful it's awe-inspiring.
Alice: SHOUTOUT to my besties for their undying support of me, my journey with my body and self love, and my endeavors to become mentally and physically healthier. I love you girlies.
Blair: Dearest Emily, your energy is a warm and glowing and you bring joy into the lives you touch. I know you get overwhelmed, but take a second a remember that you are SO loved. Xo!!
Erin: Thank you for all that you do and keep empowering <3
Audrey: Tit's up!
Rebecca: Mom, you're better than any of us.
An absolutely massive thank you to everyone who took time out of their busy weeks to participate in this!!!!! As demoralizing as this all was to hear, it was heartening to know how many phenomenal women exist in my own world. I have so much love in my heart for each and every one of you.
Such smart & relatable responses here!! Loved this!